Discussion - Personal Shields and Laser Weapons

I think if there would be personal shields, they would atleast be breathable as well. Sure, we're the backwater sector, but there's no need to downplay the energy shield for the sake of 'balance'. All things related warfare and combat have pros and cons, its why there's an unfair advantage and well, no advantage. You also forgot the possibility of the creation of kinetic based energy shields where only powerful weapons would be able to deal some real damage. Think a gauss rifle or somewhere with that kind of damage capability.

Its a good start but it still needs some more fine-tuning.

 

I don't get it Tallen if energy Weapons and shields are OP, then way being them into the discussion? Or just ban them all together. Meh, either way I kinda want to weight in and if you don't mind I liek the template you got if you don't mind I am going to barrow it.


- Ballistic and Kevlar function like they are used currently.
-Kevlar can be pierced/slashed/cut by bladed weapons not rounds. (Most people don't know this)
- Energy and personal shields are more expensive than conventional (costing around two to three times more)
-Cost should be raised to 5 to 10 times cost.
-Energy required for useage should be confined to heavy rechargeable cell (20 Lbs.).
-Energy Cell takes hour(s) to recharge.
- Ballistics easily pierce through personal shields.
-Personal shields reduce kinetic weaponry by half of its impact force.

 

I think the point is that the shields being used in Antares are older technology, so they necessarily wouldn't be up to spec with the technology that could exist in the time period. Sure, it's sci-fi, and sure, all sorts of crazy tech can exist, but it's the frontier and things take time to get there. It's slow. Nobody wants to send high tech gadgetry to the borderlands where it could get lost. I mean think about it, that stuff would be expensive.

Please don't question why people make lore topic threads if they're sincerely trying to discuss a topic. (I don't want to see anyone become discouraged from making a thread because of these kinds of replies, no offense.) Deciding on what should and shouldn't be is a part of the discussion, and thus a thread needs to exist to discuss it and it's other facets.

 

Makes sense Kaz, would be funny if the Frontier was a wacky place like Pandora from Borderlands. Hehehe! But it aint, so I see your point.
Perhaps being able to keep the shield up 24/7, let air through but only stop one shot seem fair? Then its some sort of guardian angel sorta thing against people with a laser or plasma sniper.

 

We've discussed this before between some of the staff, and it's one of those systems that a lot of us would really like to see happen, but we just never really got anywhere with it. The basic idea we had was that armors and weapons had a checks and balances system. There were three categories of weapons and armors; ballistic, laser, and plasma projectiles, and corresponding armor. Ballistics could be lessened by kevlar or other plating (Mind you, it would only hold off bullets for so long), lasers could be neutralized by an armor we devised using some "let's pretend this is how science works" tech, in which there was an armor with a conductive outer plating and outputs that would more or less dispersed the laser, since lasers are just supercharged electrons. Plasma was the most confusing. As a lot of us know, plasma can't really be consistently formed into a small projectile and fired great distances. To solve this, we had the idea of a false plasma to serve as a projectile. It was sort of a mix between lasers and ballistic rounds, where a metal round was charged with so much energy from a battery that it turned into a corrosive molten ball. Another idea in the same general family could also be that it was a magnetic bullet which had a strong enough pull to hold plasma around it. Anyways, plasma armor would more or less just be really thick plates of some such material, so it would be one or two time use, since plasma would still just melt through it very quickly. Because of this plasma would be very rare and very expensive.

The plasma idea was somewhat convoluted, but at the time it was pretty fun and interesting to us.

Side note, I'm very glad a lore discussion section was finally added.

 

That massive block of text is painful to read.

I like Tallen's thought line of not being able to have shields up 24/7. I also think they should mitigate ALL types of weaponry, but just to various amounts. They also shouldn't be able to be powered up in the blink of an eye, but perhaps take 1-2 seconds for the power source to reach it's optimal operating range. Older tech, as I've said before. I also think they should require charging stations to replenish once they've been knocked down.

In a nutshell, personal shields are good for taking 1-4 hits depending on the type of projectile. It's enough to protect you while you get into cover, but not much else.

It was more for other people who might be thinking about posting, but get discouraged.

 

Maybe also add metal armour into the mix?
Since Glitch use that most of the time.

 

Kevlar can be cut. Heavy armor can't. Case by case.
- See I bring up a valid down side to kevlar to counter, yet suddenly heavy armor is a thing.
- Is heavy armor another type of defense? Cause your proposal only stated kevlar not heavy armor.
- Heavy armor has opening that a blade can slip in but this is semantics.
Logic behind raising the cost so much and energy cells?
- Simple make it harder to get therefore reduce usage. Secondly between manufacturing case, and delivery is should be rather high (fuel cost, maintenance of the vessel, paying vessel crew), also there is hazard pay to consider for the space trucker having to come out to a rural frontier savage section of space for a delivery.
-Did you want it easy to get a hold of?
Making personal shields reduce the impact of ballistics will encourage everyone to use personal shields. Instead of tactical rock-paper-scissors everyone will use the most powerful thing available.
- Most are going to use the most powerful weapon they can get.

 

I'll copy-paste my discussion about laser & energy weapons from the armor discussion here, but with some tweaks.

"Well if we're talking about laser and plasma weaponry here, I'll take a leaf out of 40K's book. Quite a few leaves, actually.

Firstly, laser weaponry.
There are three main kinds of laser weapon, the laspistol, the lasgun (rifle-sized) and the lascannon (bazooka-sized, or bigger).
There's a running joke in 40K that Imperial Guardsmen (the human soldiers who use laspistols and lasguns the most) are essentially using laser pointers to try and kill you., because 40K presents them as being strength value 2, while most infantry are toughness 4, which makes it quite hard to kill someone with them, so they'd likely be easily stopped by most armor types. The lascannon, however, is strength value 9 which reflects the fact it was built with tank-hunting in mind. Thus, it could very easily punch a hole through anything it's aimed at, maybe even impervium. There are also variants of laser weaponry, such as lascarbines, "hotshot" lasguns and others which provide higher power or faster firing rate.

Secondly, plasma weaponry.
There are again multiple sizes of plasma weaponry that are utilized by multiple races in the 40K universe. The most common being the plasma pistol, the plasmagun and the plasma cannon. All of these fire superheated blasts of fiery gas, much like what Novakids are made of but much, much hotter and thus are generally the same power, at strength value 7. Yes, even the pistols are strength 7. However these are prone to overheating and potentially killing their users with radioactive backlash so these would probably be rare and disused in any case. However they all posess incredible penetration power and so would be able to blast through absolutely anything the projectile hit. The only real way you could protect against such would be to have a forcefield or such which could dissipate the heat without melting, as there is nothing to melt but energy.

All in all what I'm trying to get at here is that lasers probably aren't very good at doing lethal damage or piercing decent-quality armors unless you hotwire them to be more powerful, and plasma weaponry is very powerful, however would likely be so rare or temperamental that you'd likely never even encounter such in a frontier such as Antares in the first place."

 

I'm glad this is finally getting addressed. It is also comforting everyone is approaching it with logic rather then base emotion as is the common reaction from most RPers.

While I agree with Yotan and Tallen, personal shields need to have downsides, I'm not sure either shields or "kevlar" should be limited or buffed in all the ways suggested.

I'd like to point out from a professional perspective, as I have dealt with both "kevlar" and "heavy armor" as you are calling them, neither opinions on benefits or downsides are correct. Kevlar body armor can protect you from about three low caliber rounds, basically a .9 millimeter pistol. Think of the basic police officer armor. Any larger caliber round can probably get through on the second impact and will most likely kill the user (barring a miracle, which are suprisingly more common then one would think). After taking damage, kevlar armor is rendered useless and can never be used again. It can be cut with a bladed weapon, but offers suprisingly more resistance to cutting weapons then one would imagine. It is still rendered useless after taking damage. It is still rather bulky, offers reletivally little protection, and is definately hinders mobility.

If you don't believe me, try wearing one for 8 hours and doing a full work out.

To balance the obvious downsides, kevlar armor is usually a single component of most standard body armor (think of a standard U.S. infantry man, and what you are probably thinking of when you think of normal kevlar armor). The base kevlar layer is supplimented with either steel or ceramic armor plates which are usually further coated in another layer of kevlar. This design still requires the armor to be mostly scrapped after taking even a single round, but offers protection for up to 15 rounds depending on where the rounds hit and their caliber. These designs are much more cumbersom, but still allow for a wide range of motion due to how it lays on the body.

Heavy armor (think of the spec-op soldiers in World War Z from 2014) usually consists of up to 5 layers of kevlar (usually 3) 1/4" steel plates which cover most of the body including shoulders, torso, groin, and back, usually with attachments to cover the upper thigh and worn in conjuction with shin, foot, and forearm protection of similar design.

This design can still only absorb around 15 rounds, but allows for much more through protection and coverage to protect from a much broader range of weaponry. The downside is further decreased mobility and greatly increased weight. Still rather mobile and training can render the weight almost negligible. Definately still noticable, but you train to compensate for the increased weight so it won't be overburdening. Blades are mostly rendered useless at this point, (I'm a swordsman, and I've tested it) however knives COULD possibly get through if they were small enough and the wielder could get in close enough, but that would effectually require a hug, or the distance between the bodies in a hug as effectual range...I've tested this in practice fights. This is usually a bad idea because the person in the armor is trained for such things and if they don't shoot you before you reach them, they are almost always skilled enough to match your ability in such a fight (a punch to the face with an armored gauntlet ends a knife fight just as effectively as chopping off your arm. Stabbing is ALWAYS discouraged in knife fights).

Then you have EOD armor, which is literally a man sized tank, you can easily run circles around these guys because even the beefiest men are exhausted after about 30 meters of walking in these things (CoD lied to you. And it usually requires a full on construction crane truck to move them around. THESE are why Segways were developed believe it or not... a knife may be viable as a cutting weapon, as the person inside is practically imobile. Any thing short of high caliber AP rounds is ineffectual. An exoskeleton would be required to operate such armor in combat effectivly.

On the flipside, energy shielding likewise comes in multiple forms and variations across the sci-fi genre. Some only protect from energy weapons (S Wars, S Trek, Asimov) some only protect from high velocity attacks (S wars Gungan, Dune) some protect from kinetic attacks and catastrophically fail against energy weapons (Dune) and some work against everything (Halo, 40K). Some can only protect from a single hit, and some from multiple, some are single use, and some recharge at varying rates.

Boiled down, there are almost innumerable variants to both major types of protection. To nitpick about stregnth and weaknesses of each and establish how much protection each variant allows for would take months at the going rate of this discussion's posting speed.

I would instead suggest a broad general "baseline" in damage reduction that both forms of protection provide. Once that is established, provide differences in that on a type by type basis as necessary. In many regards, I feel shielding requiring a recharge after depletion is absolutely fair. But don't go easy on your standard "kevlar" armor either. Requiring repairs after combat would be just as necessary in the same situation.

Mobility should depend on the quality of protection granted by the armor. The more protection standard armor provided means it contains more mass and better engineering then a lesser design (basic physics). But the same goes for shielding, more protection requires more power.

If I had to suggest a system for the armor that accounted for this, I would recommend 4 grades of protection rating for each type, each providing their levels worth of protection of "base hit damage"

They should be able to be combined, but any total combined protection rating higher then 4 requires the user to move at a walk as long as the armor is being worn.

Shielding should take about 3 seconds to engage, and requires recharge after use. I'd recommend that it is not mandatory until the shield sustains it's maximum protection rating of "base hit damage" and should require repair if it is dropped to 1 remaining "base hit damage" worth of protection" and should be scrapped if it sustains 1 "base hit damage" more then its maximum protection rating. This is the frontier and most would have no issue with stripping a shield unit from a dead corpse, which has no use for it any more.

Standard armor should require repair if it sustains any damage, but isn't scrapped unless it sustains more then 2 "base hit damage" more then its maximum protection rating.

As for breathability and all that, I'd leave it up to the player to decide and rationally explain. That really depends on the armor in both armor families.

 

Honestly, I always feel weird when things can take a certain amount of shots before damage is actually taken. Realistically, it would result in problems OOCly even if it was set. There are already problems when a person takes ONE shot. Now, here's my view as a guy who sells laser weapons... though rp'd really slowly.

Because of this, I've always treated lasers are FMJ rounds with kinetics. They just pass straight through. The only thing is that lasers have no stopping power. In my weapon descriptions, I name what the laser round can be compared to with kinetics in terms of penetration. Then I clarify that lasers have no stopping power. Then I specify that lasers are heat and/or electrical damage.

With this, armor can follow it's normal path while having variants to specifically protect against things like heat damage or electrical damage. Armor could follow NIJ levels and lasers would still work under them in these conditions. I can't reason with a shield though, at least with what's been said about them. I don't like the idea of just blocking 3 shots. Maybe just shields against certain types and effects.

By making lasers comparable to kinetics, things go much more smoothly. It would have no stopping power but plenty of penetration as long as the guns have time to charge. They would deal heat and/or electrical damage and be compared to kinetic ammunition for accuracy in terms of how they would affect armor. Armor could then follow actual armor scales like NIJ levels and then have variety to counteract certain ammunition types, encouraging scientific ventures in new metals and materials.

It also allows roleplay to flow more naturally and with logic backed by real world value.

 

NIJ?

 

I do believe for the armor types, NIJ should perhaps be used. It works as a guide to protection against certain calibers, and as such could be used to show who has what armor due to the rarity of certain equipment. (NIJ I being the most common and NIJ IV being the rarest.)
This can be applied to armor in the laser and plasma categories.



NIJ LEVEL I:

This armor protects against .22 caliber Long Rifle Lead Round Nose (LR LRN) bullets with nominal masses of 2.6 g (40 gr) impacting at a minimum velocity of 320 m/s (1050 ft/s) or less and 380 ACP Full Metal Jacketed Round Nose (FMJ RN) bullets with nominal masses of 6.2 g (95 gr) impacting at a minimum velocity of 312 m/s (1025 ft/s) or less.


NIJ LEVEL IIA:

(Lower Velocity 9mm, .40 S&W). This armor protects against 9mm Full Metal Jacketed Round Nose (FMJ RN) bullets with nominal masses of 8.0 g (124 gr) impacting at a minimum velocity of 332 m/s (1090 ft/s) or less and .40 S&W caliber Full Metal Jacketed (FMJ) bullets with nominal masses of 11.7 g (180 gr) impacting at a minimum velocity of 312 m/s (1025 ft/s) or less. It also provides protection against Level I threats. Level IIA body armor is well suited for full-time use by police departments, particularly those seeking protection for their officers from lower velocity .40 S&W and 9mm ammunition.


NIJ LEVEL II:

(Higher Velocity 9mm, .357 Magnum). This armor protects against .357 Magnum jacketed soft-point bullets with nominal masses of 10.2 g (158 gr.) impacting at a velocity of 425 m/s (1,395 ft/s) or less and against 9mm full-jacketed bullets with nominal velocities of 358 m/s (1,175 ft/s). It also protects against most other factory loads in caliber .357 Magnum and 9mm as well as the Level I and IIA threats. Level II body armor is heavier and more bulky than either Levels I or IIA. It is worn full time by officers seeking protection against higher velocity .357 Magnum and 9mm ammunition.


NIJ LEVEL IIIA:

(.44 Magnum; Submachine Gun 9mm). This armor protects against .44 Magnum, Semi Jacketed Hollow Point (SJHP) bullets with nominal masses of 15.55 g (240 gr.) impacting at a velocity of 426 m/s (1,400 ft/s) or less and against 9mm full-metal jacketed bullets with nominal masses of 8.0 g (124 gr.) impacting at a velocity of 426 m/s (1,400 ft/s) or less. It also provides protection against most handgun threats as well as the Level I, IIA, and II threats. Level IIIA body armor provides the highest level of protection currently available from concealable body armor and is generally suitable for routine wear in many situations. However, departments located in hot, humid climates may need to evaluate the use of Level IIIA armor carefully.


NIJ LEVEL III:

(High-powered rifle). This armor, normally of hard or semirigid construction, protects against 7.62mm full-metal jacketed bullets (US military designation M80) with nominal masses of 9.7 g (150 gr.) impacting at a velocity of 838 m/s (2,750 ft/s) or less. It also provides protection against threats such as 223 Remington (5.56mm FMJ), 30 Carbine FMJ, and 12-gauge rifled slug, as well as Level I through IIIA threats. Level III body armor is clearly intended only for tactical situations when the threat warrants such protection, such as barricade confrontations involving sporting rifles.


NIJ LEVEL IV:

(Armor-piercing rifle). This armor protects against .30–06 caliber armor-piercing bullets (US military designation APM2) with nominal masses of 10.8 g (166 gr.) impacting at a velocity of 868 m/s (2,850 ft/s) or less. It also provides at least single-hit protection against the Level I through III threats.

Level IV body armor provides the highest level of protection currently available. Because this armor is intended to resist “armor piercing” bullets, it often uses ceramic materials. Such materials are brittle in nature and may provide only single-shot protection since the ceramic tends to break up when struck. As with Level III armor, Level IV armor is clearly intended only for tactical situations when the threat warrants such protection.

 

People keep brining up "costs" and "rarity" of armours in what I assume is an attempt to factor in limitations to the availability of armours and weapons discussed in this thread. I'm rather perplexed as to why this is even a consideration.

The server doesn't have an actual economy of any kind. We pretend like there is some sort of pseudo economy by going through the motions of making purchases, but money has zero value. I'd go so far as to say nothing on the server has any value because we only pretend to buy things or get paid and with a total lack of any currency, nothing CAN hold value.

Which brings me to the real question these proposed limitations raises, how do you decide who is allowed to have what?

While this thread is brining up great points, perhaps we should figure this out first?

 

There are many groups with high-tier armor which is gained legit, the USAF had NIJ Rated IV Armor as they were part of the Human Military Forces, some are gun traders and armor smiths.

We do have an economy that is run, it's called colonial trading and economy manufacture but it's also rather freelance, also there are a few groups of people that build armor and weapons for costs ICly, I myself have made armor and weapons, as has @Diehardpatriot, @Cole Ombre and @Smokestack, we've ran successful weapons and armor businesses and some of us still do.


An example of the money being drawn in can be used from Smokestack and my shop, Smoke used previous funds to build the shop and provide for starting resources, I then started building armor and weapons, selling them and getting profit, we then hired people to get paid, giving them money. Antares runs a rogue free for all economy, thats all.

EDIT: Rarity would consist of how hard the armor and weapons are to make, plus their quality overall.

 

Lasers are effective against unarmored targets, or lightly armored targets, and most effective against bare flesh causing severe burns. To counter a typical laser, you'd need a curved reflective armor that would bounce back the photons and let the remainder move over it's surface.

Though, that's not the only kind of laser... And I won't claim to know all the other wonderful kinds of laser science has discovered, but quantifying ALL energy based weaponry down to lolshields is sort of... Dumb.

I know you're striving to simplify the mess that OOC combat can be down to a nice simple 'rock-paper-scissors' principal, and that's a good goal. However, shields aren't a 'fix-all' sort of thing...

For example, a weapon that fires ionized gas (or plasma) would have an entirely different effect on the shield than the laser would. Then again, that depends entirely on what the shield is emitting to protect one from said damage. Not to mention, if someone can just CARRY a shield all the time, there's not jack shit stopping them from wearing ballistic armor AND a shield... That enables godmoding

It's not just godmoding that concerns me though, it's the very basic mechanics of the shield. It seems like you've done next to no research on the topic, and that's sort of a staple if you want to add a new technology. You haven't considered the constant power draw such a device would have, how volatile it's power source might be, that it might have to be bulky and concealable.


TLR

Shield =/= Block ALL energy weapons
Shield =/= Can run until shot at
Lasers =/= ALL kinds of the laser genre and/or energy weaponry

 

What I do is determine the cost and rarity of armor by how they would be produced and what they would be made of. I'm getting into more complex metals to vary armor purpose and make things more sci-fi. Using thing Inconel alloy which is highly resistant to corrosion. I'd use this as armor specific against heat and plasma types or material in a laser weapon's barrel. Then there's modumetal which is steel coated in metal ions through Electroplating. Working as a machinist, the cost would come from welding, bending, and cutting the metal. The rarity would come from their difficulty to make.