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Antares 1.0 and the Future

Discussion in 'Announcements and Information' started by Kazyyk, Jan 7, 2015.

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  1. Kazyyk

    Kazyyk Administrator

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    As I am sure you're all aware, Chucklefish aims to release the 1.0 update sometime within this month of January.
    If you've played the unstable build, you may have experienced the wonderful changes awaiting us. Some of these aren't very roleplay friendly, however, particularly the quest-based progression system. Some of you are likely wondering how Antares intends to move forward in response to these changes. So far, we've said nothing on it.
    Today, that changes.

    We have been working on several projects and have been entertaining more than a handful of ideas. However, I feel the time has come to reach out to the community and ask for it's input on some of these matters. I'll break down what I want to bring up to you today, and hopefully we'll have some constructive and useful responses below. The community will help shape the future of Antares.

    The following are my personal thoughts on these matters and do not reflect Staff as a whole.
    These ideas are proposals only and nothing is set in stone.

    Lore
    Chucklefish has continued to disappoint me with their lore. It's fine for a singleplayer game, but it brings up many stereotypes and other problematic canon that would be difficult to balance in roleplay. As well, there's just simply not enough of it. There's too much left up to interpretation. I propose that Antares create it's own lore, based on CF's lore, but selectively discarding the harmful parts and filling in the gaps ourselves. Any new lore released by CF would be invalidated unless we choose to incorporate it. The Community could help us to create this new lore and allow Antares to have a better foundation for roleplay. I'm looking for agree/disagreement on this idea, not necessarily proposed lore. That discussion would come later.

    Setting
    Antares is intended to be a frontier society. This means that it's essentially the Sci-Fi equivalent of the Wild West. However, I want to make sure that this is a setting that the community even wants. It's interesting because it gives a reason for new characters to show up. It's a promising land of opportunity, so to speak, rich with adventure and resources. However, I've noticed that from time to time, players tend to give themselves technology that wouldn't be appropriate for a frontier society. I personally feel that technology should be gradually introduced to the frontier, perhaps through events. I'm looking for community input on these topics.

    Law
    Antares has been completely lawless, aside from the occasional player faction trying to instill law - which as far as I know, hasn't worked too well - so that's why I'd like to introduce the idea of a Staff-backed Law faction, something to provide characters with a safe haven protected by terrorists and bandits (such characters would have to request with Staff for permission to attack, and such events would be supervised). Players shouldn't have to put their characters in danger just because they've chosen to play on their server. Outside of this protected Space, Antares would still remain the Lawless and Dangerous place that a frontier should be. Now, the Staff-backed Faction would only play a guardian role, protecting a small haven (star system) and serve as a plot device for various events. There shouldn't be any concerns of power abuse or interference with roleplay. Thoughts?

    Cloning
    I'd like to introduce an idea for cloning. I think that it's very unfair that a player's character can be permanently killed whether they like it or not. This is why people hide behind our consent rules, even though they're not supposed to. It's evident that the consent system is flawed, but that's because permadeath is flawed. Permanent Death should only be performed at a player's wishes, as a Staff requirement, or to serve an event or other plot purpose. Cloning is a canon technology, and while we can ignore it, I feel we're only hurting ourselves. I think cloning should be brought back with heavily penalizations, and that outlaws and violent characters should lose their right to clone. This can be ICly justified by the Law faction I mentioned earlier, if we give them the purpose of providing cloning services for Antares residents. I'm looking for feedback on this ideas, and suggestions for penalizations if we were to implement it.

    Progression & Economy
    It's very unfortunate that CF has decided to take the quest-based route for progression. While I can understand why they've done this, it doesn't suit roleplay very well as it defines various things about a player's characters as they progress. So I move to void the quests all-together, and find alternative means of progression. My primary question here is, should be restrict the use of mods that allow items to be spawned in at a player's discretion? It would allow easy quest-based progression, but it would allow the abuse that it already rampant and common throughout Antares. I'm not advocating an absolutely strict economy, but I do think that things should have more value beyond the sentimental value we place upon it through roleplay. I'm looking for advice and suggestions.

    Whitelisting
    We currently employ an account-based whitelisting system that allows players to create characters at their whim. It also allows more sneaky players to create characters entirely different from the one they submitted during their whitelist process, in an attempt to bypass our restrictions or out of genuine innocence and ignorance. I could enable character-based whitelisting, which would require players to apply for every character they wish to play. This would allow us, as Staff, to have much more quality control. We'd also need a rather large team of Reviewers to handle the heavy load, however. I'm looking for feedback and opinions on this idea.

    Starting Out & Default Equipment
    I've been mulling over the idea of having all characters start out with a default set of equipment, with some variance. This would be difficult to enforce if we allowed a rampant and free non-economy, so I am unsure if this idea has any basis at all, but I still wanted to present it regardless. I don't like how some players try to bring in heavy weapons or absurd technology to the frontier. In a perfect world, everyone would start out the same and earn their reputation and equipment through playing. However, especially with the 1.0 update, this type of progression will be next to impossible to implement and enforce. It all depends on what CF allows us to do in the back-end. I'm looking for discussions on this idea, based on the assumption that we may be able to someday enforce this realistically.

    Colony Construction
    It seems frequent that a colony will simply appear over night, as a player spawns themselves all the resources they need to construct it. Now, with an item as powerful as the Matter Manipulator, the construction time could be ICly justified - however I still take an issue with the magical acquirement of resources. I'm wondering if we should try and implement any policies restricting colony construction so that colonies don't pop up too terribly frequently, only to end up abandoned. I'm looking for suggestions and opinions on this topic.

    Faction Representation
    It makes me very upset to see players creating throwaway characters to represent the "might" of their faction. Again, I stress that Antares is a frontier society and that the population would be fairly low. A faction isn't going to have a mighty army, or terrifying fleets of ships. I think factions should be a "what you see is what you get" deal and that players should be restricted to one faction, to both prevent metagaming, spying, and false representation. A player shouldn't have 5 alts, each in one faction. A player should carefully choose a faction to dedicate themselves and ONE character to. Throwaways shouldn't exist, even for the purpose of battles, as that just serves to keep the core faction members alive and "powerful". Particularly if we implement cloning, this issue is likely to not be as relevant or serious, but I still think it should be discussed. A "large" faction would be 15-18 players, due to the low population of the Antares Frontier. It's entirely unreasonable to have these invisible armies and ships backing up a faction's "power". You may be wondering that if these policies are enacted, what about previous lore established by powerful factions? I'd like to state that just because something has been permitted in the past doesn't make it okay, it just means it wasn't addressed. Previous factions, I imagine, could keep their previous lore, but would be subject to the new policies. I'm looking for discussion, suggestion, feedback, and opinions.

    Vehicles & Powerful Weaponry
    Since Starbound currently doesn't natively support vehicles, and abuse of the drawables system causes lag problems - and as well, I hear, may be restricted with the 1.0 patch - I am of the notion that vehicles shouldn't exist in the frontier. Ships are one thing, but vehicles are another. These planets are small enough that they can be explored on foot, and if/when CF adds vehicles, we can discuss them again then. As well, I think that weapons of planet-destroying capability are far outside anything that would be seen in the frontier. Frankly, it's absurd. As well as nuclear weaponry, or anything with more explosive capacity than a rocket launcher (which would be rare in a frontier, as-is, I'd imagine) would just be too prone to abuse and wouldn't make sense to have in the first place. I'm looking for feedback and suggestions to policy on what to do concerning these topics.

    Forums
    The forums have existed as they have for a long time. However, I think they could better. We could perhaps have an IC library, re-vamp the Market section to make it appeal to more than just buying/selling, and perhaps give the Security forum it's own entire section and break down the various types of reports to help bring awareness to the reporting process. I'm looking for suggestions.

    Magic
    I just wanted to mention this to clarify any confusion on the subject. Regardless of what CF says, Magic does not exist in Antares. It's unexplained science. If you see a "wizard", they're delusional and messing with forces they have no understanding of. Not looking for input on this one.
     
  2. Redwilt

    Redwilt Washed up has been

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    As for vehicles, I believe there is a small chance of hoverbikes appearing in the future, but I'm not 100% positive on that.

    Cloning is still a very iffy topic with me. Half of me wants to have it and the other half doesn't, because with cloning, consequences have less meaning. IE: If you trash talk in a terrorist's holding cell, what are you expecting? A cake? No, they're going to shoot you, or hurt you, and if they shoot/harm you enough times, you're going to have to suffer the consequences. (This really happened with someone and boggled my mind to no end why they did this and still hid behind the consent shield, expecting terrorists to coddle a trash-talker. The trashtalk was IC not OOC). Consequences like this can be ignored almost entirely through the system of cloning, because, well, hey, he can just come right back! No biggy, right? And there's always going to be people that abuse the system.

    These are just my two cents though and are obviously up for debate.
     
  3. Kazyyk

    Kazyyk Administrator

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    Why not propose mechanical consequences then? As well as report rule breakers.
    It could be possible to enforce a 24 hour ban on a character that has been killed. Not automatically, but...
    It's still possible to enforce mechanically should a player be uncooperative.

    EDIT: This could be ICly justified as the "regenerative process" taking it's time.
     
  4. Thewaltham

    Thewaltham New Member

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    I'd say that vehicles should be allowed, but they should be very carefully monitored. And heavier vehicles should be rare as heck, and -not- indestructible. I'd say, a vehicle costs a faction X amount, has X capabilities, and can be destroyed permanently. For example, a humvee type vehicle. A good amount of small arms fire will disable it, and will certainly be a threat to the occupants.

    Or, even in the case of tanks, or heavy armour, smack them with rocket launchers, and boom.
     
  5. Redwilt

    Redwilt Washed up has been

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    The mention brings me to another point about the character whitelist - great idea, even though I personally hate it. (I'm an altaholic)
    The main problem is the massive workload it would push on the reviewers / mods, because once the update hits everyone and their grandparents will be pushing to get all their characters / alts back approved on the server. (Although in some cases, denial would help, like in my case, Altaholism extreme).
     
  6. Kazyyk

    Kazyyk Administrator

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    I should probably mention that it's possible to ban specific characters, even without character-based whitelisting. Folks don't have to worry about getting an account-ban because one of their characters died and they decided not to honor the rules.

    As for the workload, yeah, I get you. I'm willing to pitch in on this, too. We'd still need a large team of dedicated people, at least for the initial surge.
     
  7. Doctor Frohman

    Doctor Frohman New Member

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    I'm sorry, but I disagree 100% here. If I wanted to play the game as it was ment to be played, I'd go and play singleplayer. Cheating mods are necessary for roleplay. I want to RP, not spend hours drilling Apex labs.
    EDIT: Awaiting moderator approval? You wanted feedback, so you're going to get good and bad feedback. Keep discussion public and unbiased.
     
    #7 Doctor Frohman, Jan 7, 2015
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  8. Donovennn

    Donovennn New Member

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    This isn't quite correct. A clone is not a resurrection, by my understanding. Think of it this way. The "soul", spirit, mind, whatever of the original is gone forever. It has moved on to another place. What the clone is, is a biological copy of that person, with a different "soul".
    Death is still permanent. All cloning is doing is creating a new life that looks like the old one. Even if memories are retained, a clone should be treated ICly and perhaps OOCly as a new character entirely, with a chance to go a different way than his predecessor.

    EDIT: on another note, I do like the idea of the gradual introduction of technology. As you may or may not have seen in the thread I've posted, I'm all for high tech, future type stuff. But it would be interesting to see it all develop gradually and in a RP friendly way.
     
    #8 Donovennn, Jan 7, 2015
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  9. Angre

    Angre Majestic Penguin

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    I like the ideas presented for cloning, and alongside the twenty-four hour restriction on a character, cost should definitely be another restriction, just an in-character one. Cloning a person would probably not be cheap, and if you want a person cloned perfectly, with nothing more than a little memory loss, it'd likely cost a small fortune.

    As for item-spawning mods, I can't say I like the idea of restricting them. The most that'll end up happening is people will end up with no way to spawn materials to build, but continue to use outside editors such as Starreader to add items to their inventory. Perhaps a new section could be added to the forums that's dedicated to character finances, that could work alongside the character whitelist. Players could record their character's transactions and finances, which would greatly reduce the amount of issues regarding characters and factions acquiring funds or equipment from nowhere, and it'll help the server actually emulate some kind of economy.
     
  10. Kazyyk

    Kazyyk Administrator

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    The Announcements section entirely is set to moderator approval. I use it to keep the threads on-topic.

    EDIT: Any posts that don't directly contribute to the discussion don't get approved. Side comments, casual observations, and things like that that aren't really harmful but still non-contributive won't get approved. Intent is to keep this particular thread on-topic the whole way down.
     
    #10 Kazyyk, Jan 7, 2015
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  11. Kazyyk

    Kazyyk Administrator

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    I don't entirely agree with this. I was thinking that cloning is like taking a backup of a being's memory. They remember up to the point they died, with the last few moments becoming corrupted as a result of the death. This is why no-one can remember why they died.
    Ignoring spirituality and souls for a few moments, they are, for all intents and purpose, the same person as defined by their memories.
     
  12. Tallen

    Tallen New Member

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    Alright, I'll pitch in as best as I can from someone who's been around for a short while.

    Lore: I'm not private to the new lore coming out in the unstable updates, but one thing that bugs me is when players come in with contradicting ideas of how the lore and possibly technology works. It's happened a few times during RP: there are no written rules about beaming; it was only when I spotted an incident that I found out beaming outside a pad is 10 minutes. It caused a lot of grief. Regardless of the community's decision to accept the lore entirely or be selective we need forums to discuss specific points that everyone should be in the same wavelength about before more IC drama spills into OOC because some rules are not readily available.

    Cloning: I agree on "permadeath" being a little too punishing on this server. Cloning could work... but it would be heavily, HEAVILY moderated IC and OOC, and personally for me only one clone per character is already great. It could be something like EVE Online: getting podded (killed) causes you to transfer over to your clone... but it comes with a heavy cost to the mind of the user, who loses a lot of his experience. Perhaps the cloning process could have something similar? Characters just don't come back 100%; they might even come back with a different personality and outlook after experiencing death so closely...

    Economy: I just wish folks would understand to differentiate "what your character is holding for gameplay purposes" and "what your character actually has that makes sense IC". My personal experience was great, actually: my first encounter with another player was a Floran who robbed my character blind of his pixels and weapons. He finally found a colony but spent quite some time in poverty and foraging for food and accepting help from friends. Of course I gave him 99 cakes because the game mechanics demand it and he had a gun ready just to kill mobs who were intruding IC, and for these reasons I don't agree with banning said mods, but just ask for the players to be sensible about using them.

    Whitelisting: The community can help to follow up on the "whitelist characters, not players" idea. Here's how it may go: someone puts their character up for whitelist. They get to the queue anonymously - noone knows who submitted who. Handpicked community members with good behavior get to look at the characters and either "pass" or "whistle"; anyone who "whistles" - as in expresses doubts on the character - gets to point them out and either the rest of the members point out why its fine or it gets forwarded to the original player to make adjustments.

    Starting out: everyone starting with the same/similar gear implies everyone is the same when they arrive in Asani. I disagree. People from different backgrounds and campaigns entirely come to Antares and they all have different baggages. Personally, I'm not going for progression here; I'm going for making a good and interesting story that can be shared with other players.
     
  13. Razortazor

    Razortazor ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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    Here's my take on things:

    Cloning -
    Bad, very very bad, it would mostly void all consequences of agressive action/dying, and can be massively abused. And from my own experience, most characters get into situations that can cause their deaths often do it by themselves, and not because they didn't have the choice to back away.

    Faction representation -
    As much as I agree that most factions won't have mighty armies, I'm a little off-put at the idea of restricting players to one faction only. It ruins a lot of fun, especially if said player wants to try out new things, different types of characters, etc.

    Starting out with default gear -
    I strongly disagree with this. It could be very limiting to RP.

    Character Whitlisting -
    Again, against this one too, it will almost certainly slow things down with possible character creation, and overburden staff/reviewers.
     
  14. Donovennn

    Donovennn New Member

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    This is a very good point and I agree with this. Before the cloning ban, I made one of my character. The original was outgoing, would talk to everyone in a bar if he could, and was entirely willing to fight if it came to that. The clone lives in a constant state of fear and worry, flinching at even the slightest threat, and hardly ever initiates conversation. Because the reality of death was just shown to him to abruptly and unpleasantly, he has become very withdrawn and much less brave. His only motivation for joining the battles he has fought in was trying to desperately prove to himself that he's not as broken as he thinks he is.

    EDIT: As for the previous statement about souls and such, I meant it more like the character's mind, nothing spiritual. My personal opinion is that when a character is killed, it won't be like going to sleep and waking up again in a new cloned body. For that iteration of the being, life is permanently over. My own clone character's personality reflects his awareness of this.
     
  15. Kazyyk

    Kazyyk Administrator

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    Players can always leave a faction to join another, I'd imagine.
    I didn't think clones would remember dying. I suppose someone could tell them, but they'd have to believe it.
     
  16. Donovennn

    Donovennn New Member

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    This particular one saw his own ashes presented to one of his original's friends. Quite the rude awakening.
     
  17. Kazyyk

    Kazyyk Administrator

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    How does he know it's his ashes, though? Ashes are ashes.
    I could show you some ashes and say they're yours. Are you a clone?
     
  18. Donovennn

    Donovennn New Member

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    In this particular case it was fairly obvious, as all his friends we acting sad that he (and they were using his name) was dead, and the death caused a small stir. also the fact that he would remember purchasing a clone of himself. However I do understand what you're saying.
     
  19. Coldmaj

    Coldmaj Member

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    "Hey guys, check this shit." He says before blowing his brains out. [Five minutes later] "Hahaha, shit's fun, ain't it?!".
    "I'm just gonna go over there and explode myself to kill them." "Alright, see you later dude."
    "Arrghh... this hurts." Shoots self. [Five minutes later] "Much better."
    (('('u('u'('u')'u')u')')) "Helu am clones"

    Hyperbolised scenarios aside, cloning reaaaaaally shouldn't be a thing. Cloning makes the consequences of losing a limb or being jailed(getting back to that) waaaay worse than death. Kaz, pls. Your reasoning behind this is "people hide behind our consent rules", and that's just flawed logic; hiding behind consent is EXACTLY like cloning, in both situations, the person playing the character doesn't want their character dead, and both achieve this. However, cloning is waaay worse because there are no restrictions. At least, with consent rules, if a person was going around shooting people, he'd be shot down and stopped, but with cloning, he'd just come back.

    Cloning is also a stupid idea, because there are work arounds, people would just start kidnapping people and keeping them captive forever, assuming the cloning rule only allows a single clone per character, otherwise [ (('('u('u'('u')'u')u')')) "Helu am clones" ] would be a reality.
     
    #19 Coldmaj, Jan 7, 2015
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  20. Narfball

    Narfball narfball

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    just gonna list things i agree with (or like) here, not gonna elaborate as to why, because we're gonna get to disagreements here in a few.

    Concept for cloning - sounds solid enough
    Law - sounds good
    Server Canon Lore - would be hard to keep up with unless we had a dedicated lore page but overall if we had that it'd work out
    Faction Presentation - honestly i agree with this wholeheartedly goml


    Dislikes/disagreements go here.

    Starting out gear - Jesus god no. Say I'm playing a glitch, who, in their lore was a knight. And in said lore, never lost their armor. If they start with a set of gear that is not that set of gear, it would make no sense. If I'm playing a mercenary of any race, who in their lore has mediocre gear that can probably (e.g bullet to chest saved because vest) save their life at most once, I wouldn't swap to some default set of gear that's moderately enforced by the staff. It just makes no sense for a character to do that.

    Gonna read more of this later, I just read a few things that piqued my interest. I'll edit this post for future reference. <3
     
    #20 Narfball, Jan 7, 2015
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